But I think you'll start to see more and more credit unions look at different ways they might collaborate, because again, we're in an environment where margins are under pressure, there's uncertainty around non-interest income. So you've got to start thinking differently about your business model. Are there new ways to collaborate on the back office? Are there ways that we can engage with members by learning and helping each other? Welcome everyone to the 10th episode of In Your Best Interest: An ALM First podcast. A show that will explore common depository challenges, give you an insider's view of the latest market trends and share stories and insights from industry leaders. I'm your host, Mike Ensweiler. According to a recent PWC study, the COVID-19 pandemic could be the most serious challenge to financial institutions in nearly a century as the economic fallout, spreads, retail banks and credit unions find themselves juggling some big priorities that require concrete steps to reposition now, while also recalibrating for the future. They're working to keep their distribution channels open, despite social distancing advice and supervisory and compliance functions that were never designed from a remote work. They're trying to manage revenue and customer expectations despite near zero interest rates. And there's growing pressure on consumers. And they need to keep an eye on strategy and brand issues that will define their future as market forces and customer and member behaviors, potentially change coming out of the crisis. All of this complexity, increased costs, while margins continue to get squeezed, have many institutions redefining their business plans and priorities. This week's episode will focus on collaboration and opportunities heading into 2021. Today we are joined by Jay Johnson, Chief Collaboration Officer at Callahan and Associates and President of Callahan Financial Services. In his current role, Jay plays an integral role in managing the firm's relationships with credit union service organizations, the CUFSLP of partnership, and the trust for credit unions, for which he serves as the president and treasurer. When he's not rubbing elbows with the industry's most cooperatively minded leaders, Jay's facilitating strategic planning sessions with credit unions across the country and learning firsthand about what's on the minds of executive teams and boards or leading lively discussion groups for executive participants in Callahan Academy. Jay has worked in financial services his entire professional career, including more than 20 years at Callahan's, as well as nearly a decade at a top 20 bank. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks Mike. It's great to be here. I appreciate you having me. You know, before we get into the theme of the day collaboration in uncertain times, tell us a little bit about yourself. Sure. Well, I, uh, grew up in Phoenix and, um, I'll mention that while I was there. I worked in small business. My dad had small business and in the high school I worked in small business and that becomes important later, but, uh, left Phoenix to go to school at, uh, SMU in Dallas, ALM First headquarters. So, uh, it's always good to come back and visit you guys. It'd be, be near a school. But, uh, when I graduated SMU, Texas was in a recession and I was looking to get into banking. I was a finance major, but the banks weren't really hiring too too much at that point. And a couple of weeks after graduation, I got a call from my dad who said, uh, this gentleman named John Roy Croft gave you a call and you were, they remember John because you worked for his sister in high school. And, uh, for some reason, John Roy Croft thought of giving me a call. And, uh, so he and I talked and he said, Hey, Jay, would you be interested in moving up to DC and maybe thinking about working for this company I'm with Callahan and Associates that does work with credit unions. And, uh, I said, sure, I didn't have frankly, a lot of options at that point. But, uh, yeah, came up and, uh, didn't really know anything about credit unions at that point, but, uh, chip was there and, uh, leading the company at that point. And, um, I ended up running their, what is now called their analytics department based basically doing all the, uh, data analysis and help develop the first versions of peer-to-peer and, uh, uh, ran through all that. So, uh, so that was a fun period. And Callahan was definitely still a true startup at that point. But, uh, you know, I always wanted to get some direct experience in a financial institution. So I left after a few years, I went to graduate school, got my MBA at Emory in Atlanta. And while I was there, I started working for Wacovia bank, uh, which is no longer today, but at the time was, uh, really one of the best banks in the country, great customer service culture, great credit culture. And, uh, I did a few things there. Worked product management, oversaw, small business investment program that they had, and then, uh, went into the lending side for a while and, uh, really enjoyed it there. But, uh, then they took on a merger with, uh, First Union. And, uh, for those who know the first union name, First Union didn't have the best reputation so much so that even though they were three times the size of Wacovia, they kept the name because they didn't want to carry forward the First Union name. And, uh, about that time, I was kind of getting ready to do something else anyway. And, uh, and Chip called me and said, Hey, would you be interested in coming back, um, doing some different things this time. And so I came back to Callahan, uh, towards the end of 2001 and had been there ever since, and, uh, split my time today doing about half, uh, working with some of our collaboration activities across the industry, and then about half working on strategic planning and other discussions with boards and management teams. You've been a key figure in our, the chief collaboration officer at Callahan and associates. And, you know, for those who understand some credit union history, Ed Callahan certainly holds a prominent place in credit union lore. But for those who are uninitiated, tell us about the work that Callahan and Associates does. Sure. Well, a little bit of background on it. We we've been around over 35 years now. We started in 1985. And for those who aren't familiar with Ed Callahan, he was the chairman of NCUA under Reagan and, uh, led during that period, the deregulation of credit unions. Uh, there probably aren't many around today that were part of the industry at that time, but it was under, uh, prior to that period, uh, credit unions would literally call Washington to ask what rates they were supposed to be paying. It was, it was a very different environment. And so Callahan and Associates was formed, uh, after Ed completed his, his term. He just did the one term and, and helped form this company to help credit unions navigate this new environment, uh, uh, deregulated environment. But he had brought to NCUA with him, uh, two gentlemen, uh, one Bucky Sebastian, and two Chip Filson. And all three of them had worked together, uh, at the state level as regulators in Illinois. And, uh, when Ed was appointed by Reagan, he brought the two of them along to help him run NCUA. And then the three of them co-founded, uh, Callahan and Associates. And, uh, uh, and after, uh, that, uh, that not quite two years, uh, decided he needed a bigger organization. And so he left to run Patelco Credit Union in, San Francisco, uh, took them to, to great Heights, uh, for, for the time he was CEO there until he retired. And then Bucky left a few years later and went to run GTE Credit Union, down in Tampa. Uh, also a great credit union. Uh, so really became Chips baby in the nineties. And, uh, for those who know chip Filson, uh, you know, Harvard, Rhode scholar, Northwestern MBA, the whole deal, very analytical, just incredible strategic thinker. And, um, that the company really kind of evolved in a lot of ways in, in his vision in the early years. And the analytics were a big part of it's still are kind of the foundation of what we do, people know us for the numbers and the analytical tools like peer-to-peer we have, but after we started building the company after a while, uh, people would say, Hey, you know, this is great to know who's doing well. I'd really like to know how they're doing it. And so that kind of led to, uh, the development of creditunions.com, which is our industry facing website that really kind of tells the story of credit unions from a business perspective. You know, we look at the business from all angles and, uh, we're fortunate to be in an industry as you know, Mike that is willing to share their stories. And, you know, we believe there's not one path to success. There's a lot of paths to success. So creditunions.com is a way for us to kind of share the different approaches that credit unions are taking. Uh, we do consulting, as I said, we do probably 50 planning sessions a year as a firm with different credit unions, excuses, leads, et cetera, corporates, uh, are all a part of that, uh, primarily strategic planning. Uh, and then we try and foster collaboration in the industry. We do a lot of executive round tables during the year. This year, we've done more than ever because, uh, instead of traveling and doing them in person, we're doing them via Zoom these days. But, uh, it's, uh, obviously an important time for credit unions to connect. So that's helpful. And then we collaborate with the industry and we're involved in some CUSO's ourselves, um, that, uh, we're proud to be a part of and, and helped found. And, uh, that's the way we kind of live this idea of collaboration that we believe it's so important in this industry. You know, in addition to the chief collaboration officer role, you have, you're also the president of Callahan credit union financial services, which according to your website is a partnership comprised of executives from 32 leading credit unions across the U S that looks to develop collaborative solutions to enhance the value and impact of credit unions in the communities they serve. Um, you represent more than 140 billion in assets and over 10.2 million members. Tell us a little bit about the origins of CUFSLP as it's called and what collaborative solutions the organization brings to the table. Well, CUFSLP is, uh, one of the early CUSO's really, um, was started in 1987 and it was started, uh, to provide the seed money to, uh, get the trust for credit unions mutual funds off the ground, which Alan first, you know that, well, of course, Mike, as being the investment advisor for the funds, but in 87, we got a group of, of, uh, 20 credit unions together to provide the seed money, to get that going. And the group, um, kept evolving and continues to evolve really. But in the mid nineties, we expanded the group up to 40 credit unions and, uh, had for the first time a full-time CEO, uh, Bill Connors, who was CEO of Purdue Federal Credit Unions, LA Police Federal Credit Union. He was part of all of that, but, um, Bill, expanded and really, uh, helped to kind of change how CUFSLP, uh, how they worked together and really started coming at it, not so it wasn't so much anymore about the mutual funds only, but it was about what are the big industry issues that, uh, credit unions need to be thinking about. And as you said in the description, there, it's a, it's a small group, but it's a, it's a group of influential and very forward-looking credit unions. And so when they do things together, generally, uh, things happen. So over the years they've been involved in a number of things. They were one of the, one of the ideas brought First Tech Credit Union was one of our, is one of our partners. And in the mid nineties, they came to one of our meetings and said, there's this internet thing. And we should all put up internet pages and nobody knew what that was or what to do. And so one of the things that this partnership funded was actually the building of some of the first credit and websites that were put out there. And, uh, uh, you know, nobody at that time had web developers or anything like that. So, so we actually tried on and, you know, that's the type of thing. So over the years we've done a number of initiatives like that. Um, there was a purchasing card initiative that we did, uh, the early two thousands called Procura that a number of credit unions, some corporates were involved in, um, student lending is a topic we looked at, uh, credit union student choice. The CUSO, uh, today has, um, it's still the leading private student lender among credit unions that came out of this group as well. Some of the research that we started. Today, the group is working a lot on, uh, financial health and financial wellness of members as being a real key differentiator for credit unions going forward. So it's really taking on these strategic issues and, um, and moving them forward. Uh, but the foundation of it goes back to the TCU funds and those are still a big part of what, uh, the CUFSLP does they're legally the administrator of the funds, and really provide a key voice of the market, uh, for those two. So they cover a whole range of activities, but are, are I think not only critical to GCU and just on its own, but I think a really critical group for the industry in terms of how they think and, and where they push forward. And, and really embracing cooperative spirit that credit unions embody. It's, it's fundamental to, to that group. And, and I think as much as anything we talk Mike about kind of the mindset that they bring, um, you know, these credit unions are generally larger credit unions. Most of them can do a lot of things on their own, but, uh, Whereas they maybe couldn't 20 years ago in the late eighties, it was tough to accomplish a lot of these things individually. Cause even at that time, the biggest credit unions were still pretty small. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And it's a good point because you know, a lot of the CEOs in the group today came up during that time and, uh, you know, weren't CEO at the time, but maybe sat in on some of the meetings. And I think that collaborative mindset that they heard, the Tom Doherty's, the Bucky Sebastian's the Tom Sargent's the Ed Callahan's the Rudy Handley's that Gary Oakland's the things that they were talking about, um, that they, they learned what being a, uh, collaborative leader is, is about and continue really to bring that mindset to it. And, uh, and still look for those opportunities to say, how can we learn from each other? How can we work together with each other, let's do this. And it's all it's never done with, what can we do just for my credit union or even for this partnership. It really is a credit union industry perspective. And that's why so many of the things that we've worked on go well beyond the partnership. Well, and hopefully understanding that history, having people who grow up during that time, so to speak at least in their career, um, in the fact that, that you guys do embody that, that cooperative spirit, hopefully that continues on because as more and more people come into the industry from other industries, um, it seems like that that piece of it could be easy to get lost. Right, for sure. And, and again, that's what... I mean, it amazes me and the, the, um, the way this group connects with each other and the, their, their openness and their willingness to share, it's interesting because if you have a CEO who hasn't been a part of the group or someone who's from out of the industry, like you're saying come into these meetings, uh, they're blown away. They just can't believe. I mean, we get that a lot of times, you know, when people come to our Callahan round tables that are coming from banks, for example, they can't believe the things we talk about are Callahan round tables, that people are willing to talk about who they use and how they do things, but it's a whole different level, a whole higher level, I think, among the partnership and the way these CEOs talk, talk with each other and, and what they're willing to work on. So it's, uh, it's great. It's a great group to be a part of. So, you know, you've mentioned a couple of times that you're facilitating these round tables for CEOs and CFOs and chief lending officers and so forth. So as you do these, or as you've been doing these, what is top of mind for the different roles of these round tables In 2020? It's just a lot of questions, I think. Um, it's, um, it, obviously this is a really unique year as we know, just unlike any other. And, um, I, I do think, uh, just questions for each other has been a big part of it. Uh, it's why we've kind of ramped up and, and have more of our round tables than we ever have. Um, but I think a couple of overarching themes that are, that are coming through in it. Um, one is, you know, first on the concerns, you know, people are, are concerned about, uh, margins with the rate environment and with the outlook, uh, the fed gave last month. Uh, that's a concern, uh, you know, we know we're in for margin squeeze. It felt like we were trying to skidding, you know, finally expanding the margins again after being at a zero rate environment for so long, essentially coming out of the great recession and now we're right back into it. So that margin pressure is certainly, I think top of mind, I think the, maybe the biggest question is the, um, just uncertainty around what's going to happen on with the loan portfolio. Uh, credit unions obviously really moved quickly to help support members, right? When the pandemic hit a lot of loan, deferments, skip a pay programs, things like that, that they put in place fee waivers. Um, and, uh, you know, that's kind of, most, most credit unions have kind of wound that down in the sense that at least, you know, a lot of them just gave a blanket, uh, deferrals and skip a pay. And, and now they're saying, well, you at least need to tell us that you need some help. And, and they're keeping that pretty loose too. I think again, they, you know, they want to help members, but, um, you just don't know. And, and I don't think anyone knows exactly how long this will play out, how, how significant it could be. Obviously this question is about is, is the federal government gonna come through with any more help and what that might look like. But, um, you know, so that's a big question. And then on the other side of the balance sheet, obviously that the share growth has been the huge story this year. Uh, just incredible share growth. And so there's plenty of liquidity. And, uh, but again, the question there does that liquidity stay, uh, if there's not another stimulus, what might happen to that? Um, and then just the whole kind of question about consumer activity and whether that's borrowing or just day-to-day transaction activity. Obviously interchange income is a big, uh, source of revenue, a lot of credit unions. And, uh, you know, we, we know we've seen reports for Co-op and PSCU and others that, you know, that's certainly slowed this year. So does that start to ramp back up? Consumer, uh, borrowing, we've heard kind of mixed messages. Some, some credit unions are still doing great. A lot of, a lot of auto lending, a lot of RV lending going on these days, um, you know, mortgage lending certainly going on, but, you know, generally does that stick with us? Does it, do we see some kind of return to quote unquote normalcy with some of that as well? You know, in addition to the round tables, you stated that you work with a variety of credit unions in the area of strategic planning. So kind of the same question, what are some of the challenges each are facing in this environment? And I think you gave us a macro level overview of that, but perhaps what are some of the new, different, innovative ideas that are being discussed? Well, I think anytime you're in an environment like this, where there's a lot of uncertainty and, um, where there's both economic pressures and, uh, just pressures on the business, I think it spurs new ways of thinking. Um, and I think we're probably still really early in that cycle, but I think Mike we'll probably start seeing more innovation come out of this. Um, you know, if you, if you think about the way that credit unions adjusted and, and not just credit unions, obviously a lot of organizations that you guys did, uh, when we'd had gallons and everyone had to adjust very quickly, you know, back in March, but for credit unions, just the operational changes they had to make, um, the, the speed at which they had to make those. Moving employees to remote work, changing the way they interact with members on, on the front line was really tremendous. And I think part of the, uh, interesting aspect of that is that it, it demonstrated that, Hey, we can actually make changes really quickly if we want to. And obviously, you know, this environment is not what you want to cause those types of changes and that type of patient, but, uh, but we did it, you know, we did it. And I think part of the challenge here is can credit unions carry that mindset forward? That idea that, Hey, you know, let's respond more quickly, let's respond. What are we hearing from members? How can we respond quickly? You know, they, they obviously a lot of activity, uh, around just helping members in addition to everything they were dealing with internally, uh, trying to adjust. So I think a big part of that is the mindset, uh, of that, that I think you'll start to see more and more credit unions look at, uh, different ways they might collaborate. Because again, we're in an environment where margins are under pressure, there's uncertainty around non-interest income. So you've got to start thinking differently about your business model. And so are there new ways to collaborate on the back office? Are there new, uh, ways that we can engage with members by learning and helping each other? Uh, you know, a lot of credit unions getting into things like AI and other things. There's going to be a learning curve there. How can we, how can we help each other in that process? So I think you're gonna, you're gonna see more of that type of thought of let's try and help each other. I think you're going to have to, because especially with the uncertainty around the lockdown and people not going out as much as they used to, um, redefining delivery channels and how we're going to serve members who might not walk into a branch or feel uncomfortable doing that, the app and the website are great, but what else could we, should we be doing to continue to thrive and to grow and to serve our current members and all of that? Yeah. Well, and then you think about, um, just the talent, you know, uh, I think many credit unions have said, okay, we may not be ideal for us, but we're certainly more open to having more remote workers, you know, flexible. Okay. So does that change the way you think about talent and again, are there opportunities maybe for, uh, credit unions? Yeah. There's some high price talent out there that could bring a lot of value to the industry. Hey, well maybe my shop can't afford this person, but Hey, if two or three of us, you know, maybe do some cohering and you know, what can we, what can we do to leverage some of this expertise in new technologies, new ways of interacting with members? Um, all of that I think is at play right now. So, um, yeah, I think, again, I think we're still early, but we've heard in planning sessions, I think credit unions are kind of challenging themselves to say at least for some period over these next couple of years, we're going to be an environment where we need to think a little differently about our business and, uh, how do we respond to that and keep serving the members. So I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out. I, you know, that it's still new, but I think, I think we're going to see some, some good collaboration come out of this. Yeah. It sounds like this is a great opportunity to do that. You know, you, you see the data, um, obviously you guys are running all the industry data, you're doing the round tables, you're facilitating the planning sessions. So you, you see a lot of different institutions have different sizes, different business models, we'll say. Um, so what is some of the common practices or maybe best practices of those who are doing better than others? Well, I think a couple of points I'd make, uh, first I think just as we, uh, talked about a minute ago, obviously the ability to pivot quickly to these changing conditions know 2020, every few weeks, there's something else new. I mean, you know, the pandemic is overarching at all, but as you know, different parts of the country have been dealing with just social unrest plus, you know, things like you've got another hurricane coming towards us again. Right. You've got the wildfires fires out West, uh, all, No election. That is a, maybe a little different than, Yeah, no, a lot of uncertainty around that and, and questions around some of the effects of that afterward, you know? Yeah. All of that. So, um, so, you know, that's, that's tough from a leadership standpoint, but I think, uh, that ability to, to, uh, instill confidence in your, in your, uh, team and instill competency, your membership, and then pivot and respond to them, uh, is critical. I, I think one of the takeaways is this from this environment is, um, you gotta take care of your employees. And obviously I think most credit union leaders are, I think credit union leaders have always been in that boat, but even more heightened to it in this environment because, um, as you know, we're all dealing with different sets of challenges, be it maybe kids that you got to school from home while you're trying to do work to, uh, just not being able to connect to your team in person, maybe, you know, all those different challenges. So gotta take care of your employees. If you take care of them and they recognize and see what, what you're doing for them, they will take care of members. And I think that's an important aspect too. Um, That's a really great point that you bring up because it's certainly something that I haven't thought about, but it's instilling that confidence in your employees, you know, your job is safe that, you know, we're here to support you, if you need flexibility to, to work with your kids because they're virtual learning all of those kinds of things. I, I, yeah. I really like that idea, Jay. Yeah. It, again, I think the important thing is it carries through Mike to the members, you know, if your employees have that confidence in that, uh, feeling that you're behind them, they're going to do what's best for the members continuing to do that. And I think, and that's another thing I think just continuing, uh, and it goes along with these changing conditions, but member conditions are going to change too. And, and, you know, you may see a wider variety of situations that members are in. So being sure that frontline staff and whether it's branch or call center, or just the analytics you might be using on how they're using channels, what are you hearing from members? What are you seeing from their behaviors? You know, and then how can you take that information and act on it and what lessons are be, are we learning from that is going to be important. Um, but, uh, you know, that that's what credit unions have always done. And I think that's going to be important to continue to do. Yep, absolutely. Just more heightened maybe now, any avoidable pitfalls, um, that you you've seen, You know, it's interesting. I think the biggest pitfall that, uh, credit unions need to avoid is, um, kind of what I would call just a hunker down mentality. Um, because I think, uh, the reality is that, well, uh, I'll give you a little history lesson. Uh, well, if you look back at where credit unions were in 2007, and we've talked about this on some of our trend watch calls that we do each quarter, when we talk about the industry numbers. But if you look back at 2007 where the industry was versus where we are today, um, you know, today we're just 13 years later, more than double in assets doubled in capital membership is up 40% by almost every measure. You know, member engagement member relationships are operating efficiently, everything is improved. And the reason for that I believe is that when you think back to that great recession period credit unions stayed in the game, and by that, I mean they continue to help members. If you remember back on the headlines during that time, Mike, it was all about there's a credit crisis and the credit crunch. Um, but actually those years, 2008, 09, 10 credit unions had the best lending years they had ever had up to that point. And I think a big reason for being where we are today and all the success we had over the last decade or so, uh, is because of that hard work we did, uh, coming out of the recession and sticking with members. And so I think if, uh, I think that's key and that's frankly, the role of credit unions is to be counter cyclical. You know, the federal credit act was passed in the middle of the great depression. It's not that we needed more banks during the great depression, we needed another way of banking and that's what credit is supposed to be about. So I think the danger is, if you say, you know, the environments can be challenging, we need to kind of pull back, you know, guard our capital, et cetera. Now this is why you build capital it's exactly for these times that credit unions are made. So, so I think the pitfall is, you know, you, you kinda close in and, and, uh, uh, stop listening or stop responding to the needs you have, uh, being a credit union employee and being accredited executive it's hard work. Uh, but that's what, that's what we're here for. And so I think that's the real opportunity that we have. So you've touched on this a number of times, but it's something I want to maybe see if we can dig a little deeper into. Um, but you know, I just want to talk about silver linings, you know, glass half full, this, this, uh, environment we're in right now is, is forcing us to kind of relook at our business plan, at our delivery channel at how we serve members. Is there an overarching, silver lining maybe beyond that, that you see for, for credit unions or for the industry, um, in this new environment? I think the it's been interesting during our dark, our planning sessions, a lot of the planning session work we've done this year, it's been reflecting on 2020 and what does it mean? And what have we learned? And then we'll kind of say, okay, well, let's now step back and say, let's look back again at what we had in our strategic plans. And what's changed now that we've reflected on all that's gone on this year. And it's been really interesting because, uh, except for kind of around the edge, kind of changes the fundamentals of who we are and what we're trying to accomplish are still the same. And so I think the silver lining is, um, keep focused on those core values, those core plans and those core strategies that you had, because those are probably still very relevant. Now, I think the difference is maybe you need to reprioritize some things. So as we talked about, you know, digital delivery or things like that may become, uh, we may need to accelerate and we've talked to some credit unions have said, um, you know, actually let's kind of push forward. Some plans that maybe we had coming in the next year or two years members are behaving differently. We've said we want to kind of gradually evolve our model. Let's do it. You know, the behavior, even again, it's more maybe driven by the environment, but members are doing things differently. Let's respond more quickly to that. So I think there's this opportunity to, to invest in and make changes more quickly. Um, but then I also think that the other side here is, is this idea of kind of rethinking how we interact as a team at a credit union and with our staff. And, um, you know, it is different. It is different, but I think we're really building different skill sets in our employee base that maybe weren't there before. And I think a lot of employees are seeing different opportunities, uh, that they have, uh, that may be weren't weren't there maybe wouldn't have emerged for a few years. They're emerging now, you know, different ways to interact with members and what opportunities might that bring. Um, so I think there are silver linings, but again, I think the big thing is if we stick with members of credit and stick with serving their members, responding to what they need, that's going to be a huge opportunity just as we had the last decade coming out of the great recession. I think, again, you hate to have this type of environment cause it, but I think this type of environment really gives credit unions an advantage, but key is just stick to stick to those core values of who we are, and again, I think if you're most credit unions, if they look at their plans, they'd look at it, even with everything that's gone on this year and say, you know what, we're actually on the right path. So let's just kind of push forward, maybe even faster than we thought we could. Yeah. So while it's not business as usual, stay the course reprioritize, stay the course, do the right things for your members, um, for your employees, especially. And, um, that, that's what you're here for. Right. That's right. Yeah. You know, we're all gonna need to adjust just as we have been, but, but, uh, as you said, it's more of that. Well, let's reprioritize and do things a little differently than maybe we expected, but let's stick to what we know. Alright Jay, you know, the, the bummer about this podcast is it's only 30 minutes long, so we're, we're butting up against the clock here. So any other closing thoughts that you'd like to leave us with? Well, Mike, I just think credit unions are coming in to this environment, uh, from a financial perspective and a member perspective stronger than they have ever been. And we've been really excited to hear what we've heard from a lot of credit unions, which is, yeah, this is a time of opportunity for us. It's, it's a terrible time in a lot of ways, but that, that, the drivers of that terribleness means members are going to need us and they're going to need us more than ever. So, uh, it is an opportunity. Um, and, you know, they say opportunity comes from adversity. And I think this is one of those times, uh, there's been more adversity in 2020 than maybe any year we've ever lived through. So, um I'm really bullish because I really think, again, kind of thinking back over the last 12, 13 years, the way credit funds have grown, I think we have the opportunity for another reset in terms of our expectations as an industry, and can continue to impact the members and communities we serve. So I'm interested to see where it all goes and, and what creative ways we come out of this, uh, working together and, and, uh, they could progress on that. Well, thank you, Jay, for your enthusiasm for instilling some confidence, at least in me and joining us today and giving us food for thought as we head into the planning and budgeting season. Thank you, Mike. Again great to be a part of it. I appreciate it. I want to thank you again, Jay, for sharing your thoughts on best practices and collaboration in this environment. At the end of each episode, I like to take a moment and let you know about some additional resources we have available. If you'd like to learn more about what Jay was talking about, you can reach out to him directly at jayjohnson@callahan.com. You can also check our website for our educational events, as well as be the lookout for our upcoming 2021 financial performance checklist webinars series. As always stay safe, stay healthy, and thank you for listening to In Your Best Interest: An ALM First podcast.
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